The Sacred Waters of "De Havenstad"

An interview with Cyril Meulenaer, conducted in the fall of 2006. This was the last interview with him before his passing on May 29, 2007.

1. First of all, congratulations on your more than 70 world championship titles. When and with which breed did you start your breeding career?

I don't know exactly how many titles I've won at world championships because I stopped counting. But it's definitely more than seventy. The last one I won was at the Poznan World Show with a salt & pepper female who became the winner of the veteran class. I started with Boxers in 1951, which I bred until around 1960. Meanwhile, in 1956, I got my first Miniature Schnauzer from the cousin of Prince Rainier of Monaco, who was breeding this breed at the time. This female was everything but beautiful: long-bodied, light-eyed. I bred her with a French male in 1957-1958. Many beautiful puppies were born from this, such as the male Eros vd Havenstad. I sold him to Ria Harmsen in the Netherlands, where he later became a champion. From the second litter, a female named Fina achieved my first major victory. Then, in 1960, I temporarily stopped breeding Miniature Schnauzers because of their nervous temperament. They barked at the slightest noise. After that, I bred horses for 16 years. Then, in the late 1970s, I returned to breeding Schnauzers. This time, I focused on salt & pepper Giant Schnauzers. Already from the first litter, Adonis vd Havenstad became a 3x World Champion. Later, I bred with an English import female. According to the breed standard, she was not considered beautiful at all, so no one understood why I chose her. But I was sure she was the one for me. Faust and Favorit were her descendants. Faust also became a 3x World Champion. An American buyer offered 23,000 euros for him, but I declined the offer. Instead, I gave him to the American Skansen’s kennel, with whom I maintained a good relationship, and many dogs came to me from them. In the early 1980s, I returned to Miniature Schnauzers. From America, I got Jebema’s Black Debutant, a 13-month-old black female. I bred her with a Finnish import black male, and this was the beginning of my kennel's success. Ocus Pocus became one of the most beautiful dogs from this line.

2. Why did you choose the name Havenstad (Dutch for "port city") for your kennel?

I lived in Antwerp for a long time, which is an important and one of the largest port cities in Europe. When I moved from Antwerp to my current residence, I chose the name Havenstad as a tribute to Antwerp.

3. You also founded a second kennel: Stad of Haven (City or Port). What was the reason for this?

As an amateur breeder in Belgium, you can only have two litters per year. That's why I registered the Stad of Haven kennel in my daughter Carine's name.

4. What is the secret to your success?

Luck. And, of course, my sacred water (laughs). There is a small pond in our garden. When I had horses, I used to jump them over it as practice. That's why this little pond is still in the garden. The dogs drink from it. I jokingly say that it contains holy water, and that's why my dogs are so successful. A German judge actually believed it and wanted a bottle of it. But of course, this is just a nice anecdote. The real secret to my success is "Fingerspitzengefuhl" (a German expression meaning "I feel it in my fingertips"). I value bloodlines, but the dog itself even more. The pedigree is just a piece of paper. Some say that a good dog breeder must also have experience with horses. If you can analyze these animals well, you will do well with dogs too. Just like with horses, tempo is important with dogs: how they walk. The effort put into finding good dogs is also important. For example, I traveled to the United Kingdom and America. It is evident that Russia breeds many top-class dogs, which is possible because they invest a lot in the breed. They travel everywhere to find interesting dogs for their breeding programs.

5. Are you interested in other breeds as well?

Only the Brussels Griffon. This breed is a big challenge for me because it is so complicated. For example, birthing complications often occur. In the 15 years since I've been working with this breed, I've won at least 16 world titles. The last one was in Poznan (2006). Earlier, I also successfully bred Dachshunds. My male named Cactus was chosen as the world champion out of 160 dogs. Dachshunds were mainly my wife Denise's favorites. Personally, I don't like short-legged dogs. Those dogs are for underground work.

Schnauzer color shades

6. What are the important qualities you look for in a black Schnauzer?

Everything is important to me: the overall appearance of the dog. If this is good, then the angulation and shoulders are automatically good too. Of course, 100% perfect dogs don't exist. That's why I find it ridiculous to judge a dog based on minor details like the tail or ears. However, I consider some things important: a good head, teeth, and coat. Short legs are an absolute no for me. I also like long, slender necks and wedge-shaped heads, not the elongated heads typical of terriers. I don't like short front legs or steep shoulders either.

7. You used American bloodlines. Which qualities did you want to acquire, and which did you not? Do you think there should be one type of Schnauzer instead of the European and American types?

In the 1950s and 1960s, it was necessary to use American dogs. At that time, European dogs were little monsters: without body or head, with bulging eyes. Moreover, they had bad temperaments and barked all day. Only their coat was good and harsh. However, in America, they had already achieved great results at that time, both in terms of appearance and character. During this time, I went to America with my salt & pepper Giant and saw how beautiful the Miniatures were. So, I didn't want to leave without buying a dog. This was the previously mentioned female, Jebema's Black Debutant. She won everywhere except in Germany, where they didn't want an American dog to win, although they didn't make any comments about her. In Germany, she came in third, while the first and second-place dogs had many flaws and shortcomings. The disadvantage of American dogs is the quality of the coat: the overly angulated hindquarters and the too terrier-like front. In my opinion, there is only one type of Schnauzer. However, nowadays, many dogs are half terrier, half Schnauzer. I don't like that.

8. Your dogs are spread all over the world: from America to Japan. Almost all good black Miniature Schnauzers have Havenstad bloodlines. You've seen many Schnauzers in your life. What do you see as the main external flaws in them?

This varies a lot, but generally, I see flaws in the chest and leg length. More and more short-legged Schnauzers are appearing, especially among Salt & Pepper Miniature Schnauzers and Standard Schnauzers. This is a huge problem. If a dog has long legs, the chest will automatically grow as well. This is clearly visible when the dog walks.

9. What is your ideal Schnauzer? Have you had a dog that matched this ideal?

It should be square, not terrier-like, and not short-legged. Additionally, the legs should be well under the dog's body, not sticking out forward. Poor coat quality is not such a big problem for me, as grooming can improve it a lot. Ocus Pocus was almost perfect in my eyes. At that time, and undoubtedly even today, he is considered a top dog. He lived for 16 years and passed away in 2005.

Schnauzer color shades

10. In some countries, it is not allowed to crop dogs' ears and tails. What is your opinion on this?

Cropped dogs are much more impressive. I fear that many breeds will disappear because more and more countries are banning cropping. This is already visible with Giant Schnauzers. Many people are giving up breeding them because cropping is not allowed. I also stopped because I don't like floppy ears and long tails. The type is no longer authentic, and the long tail is not practical. It's almost like a weapon. You have to secure everything that is at tail height.

11. The ban on tail docking makes it clear that there are issues with tail shape. What is the ideal shape?

Germany has established a new standard stating that the tail should be long and saber-shaped. I don't think it's a big problem if the tail curves over the dog's back, as it then looks like they don't have a tail. For Miniatures, I don't think this is an issue, but for Giants, it is.

12. What do you think: Should judges themselves breed Schnauzers to know more about the breed, but thereby become less objective? Or would it be better if judges did not breed Schnauzers to remain more independent, even if it means they know less about the breed?

I don't know which is better; both have their advantages and disadvantages. Generally, a judge should have successfully bred the breed for some time. If they have achieved results, it shows they have solid knowledge. This is not true for 75% of judges. If their knowledge is lacking, we often see how unpredictable they can be.

However, independence is a perpetual issue. I was asked if I wanted to become a judge, but I declined because I couldn't be objective. In reality, the person matters most; the judge's honesty and responsibility are crucial. Some judges don't want to judge their own dogs, while others have no problem with it and don't hesitate to award their own dogs.

13. Many believe that one should not follow current trends but stick to the breed standard. What do you think about this issue?

Undoubtedly, it is necessary to pay attention to current trends. We no longer use wooden wheels for bicycles. The first Schnauzers were completely different from today's Schnauzers. If we don't follow trends, we stagnate, as the Germans are currently doing. It is noticeable that the best dogs of German breeds no longer come from Germany. I bred the world's best Salt & Pepper Giant, such as Adonis. But if I had lived in Germany, he would never have been born. Because his mother was an English female who, according to the German standard, was too small and not beautiful enough. I bred this English female with a Dutch male, who was also not a champion. From this pairing, Adonis was born. He had everything his mother lacked. When breeding, you must always look to improve your dog's shortcomings. Breeding the best dogs together does not necessarily produce offspring that meet the standard. You must always pay attention to a dog's flaws and strengths. A good dog is always more dominant than a bad one. So, if you breed two good, dominant dogs, the genes will fight. You need a weaker dog to achieve the right balance.

I started with a European dog that was not considered beautiful at all. To everyone's surprise, when bred with an American dog, it produced dogs that met the European standard. In Germany, they say, "Thanks to you, we still have Schnauzers; you took risks, and it paid off." In the UK, they say, "You are a gambler." I say: If you don't try anything, you can never win!

Schnauzer color shades

14. Olga Selewerstowa was among the first to use your dogs in Russia. She considers you a great talent and a genius. Talent cannot be passed on, but do you have any advice for those breeding Miniature Schnauzers?

Keep your eyes open (laughs). Travel, see a lot, and observe carefully—this is my creed. If I hadn't gone to America, I would never have achieved the same results. And you must be strict. Look at what your dog is lacking and find a dog that can compensate for it. Forget about your dog's strengths and focus on its weaknesses.

15. Angela Gorochowa, founder of the "s Taganiego Roga" kennel, greatly admires and respects you. She also has three questions. The first: You have experience with black and silver Schnauzers, which come from black. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?

It's nonsense that you can't breed black and silver from black. Very high-quality black dogs could come from this. A good example is Zazou vd. Havenstad (black), who has produced top black and silver dogs in Spain. These dogs have an even blacker coat than the blacks. But I don't know how this affects the color and quality after several generations. In reality, it's a big challenge and an interesting task to observe what happens over many generations.

16. Angela's second question: How can we breed dogs over 35–37 cm without getting even larger dogs?

You can experiment with height and try things out. You shouldn't experiment with eye color. I paired two large dogs: the 37 cm tall Traveller with a 38 cm tall female. From this pairing, not overly large, well-sized dogs were born. If we look at these traits too strictly, we will never achieve anything, as we cannot know everything about previous generations. But this is also a dilemma: on one hand, it doesn't seem wise to pair two large dogs, but on the other hand, you never know what good results it might lead to. If the result isn't good: don't do it again.

17. Angela's third question: Traveller has a high-quality and beautiful black coat. Do you have more dogs of this quality?

First of all, coat care is very important for achieving high-quality coats. However, the Traveller line is the best in terms of coat quality. Traveller, Ocus Pocus, and Standing, the son of Opium, are his descendants. From time to time, a large male is born from this line, but the females are always well-sized.

Schnauzer color shades

18. How do you see the future?

If we look at black Miniatures—especially compared to other colors—the average quality is good. I don't think there's much room for improvement at the top level. However, the number of top-quality dogs is too small. So, I would like to see more dogs in this category to create a larger base for the breed.

Author: Andrej Shmal